I think Barlett pretty clearly shows how our tax burden hasn't significantly changed from Bush to Obama. Wherefore the charges of socialism from the tea party, then? It's fair to have a reasonable debate about taxes and spending, but I don't think the tea party movement wants to be a part of that debate.My response
Isn't it also fair to consider what you, your community, and the country gets in return for those taxes?
I've seen a lot of articles and comments setting up straw men about what the tea party is about and why it's wrong. One thing Bartlett points out and I will grant him is that a significantly large percentage of Tea Partiers (and that's what most of us call ourselves, thank you, not "Tea Baggers") are not well read and do not have a grasp on the details as far as exactly how much of their income goes to taxes. Most of them have jobs, and those jobs are mostly outside of the punditry and think-tank industry.
However, what they generally are is believers in free-markets and limited government and liberty. They believe in the right things, and they know that those things have been compromised by the growth and direction of government.
In their view, and in the veiw of the founders, "what you, your community, and the country gets in return for those taxes" is irrelevant. The focus is on what the role of government is. Spending is a measure of that, and taxes are they symptom.
Critics also tend to believe that since most Tea Partiers supported Bush over Kerry and Gore, and probably McCain over Obama -- that this is about Obama. Or about Democrats only. It is not, and this goes back far before GW Bush, or Reagan, or Carter, or Ford or Nixon or Johnson or Kennedy ... this has been building for a long time, incrementally like the proverbial frog in a slowly heated pan of water who doesn't notice the incremental increase in temperature and ends up getting cooked.
Any cursory and honest look at Obama's life shows that at the very least he was heavily influenced by people who professed to be socialists, or professed socialist views but called it something different. He's been in office a year and some change with the stated intent of "Fundamentally Transforming" the United States of America. But Obama is not the problem. Obama is the latest symptom of the problem, and he is the face and current executor of the agenda for the Center for American Progress, Apollo Alliance, and TIDES. He is surrounded in his cabinet, the think tanks he goes to, and in Congress with progressives -- some explicitly socialist, some not.
To conclude that he's "not a socialist" because, "hey, taxes haven't gone up" in the 14 months he's been in office is nonsense.
And you're very wrong about the tea partiers not wanting to have a reasonable debate about taxes and spending. That is exactly the debate they would like to have (though as Bartlett points out, many wouldn't be very good at it, just as many socialism supporters wouldn't be very good at arguing for socialism).
The problem is that if the Big Government side of the equation gets to decide what is "reasonable" and what can be dismissed as a bunch of ignorant, racist, redneck "Tea Baggers" -- a meaningful debate will never happen.
Update: as if to underscore my point, in this very good editorial -- David Harsanyi writes:
Surely it is inarguable that the debate over a national mandate epitomizes the central ideological divide in the country today.
In broad terms, there is one side that believes liberty can be subverted for the collective good because government often makes more efficient and more moral choices.
Then there is the other side, which believes that people who believe such twaddle are seditious pinkos.
And judging from nearly every poll, the majority of Americans disapprove of President Barack Obama and his defining legislation. Whether they understand the mugging of freedoms in legal terms or in intellectual terms or only in intuitive ones doesn't matter.
6 comments:
“I will grant him is that a significantly large percentage of Tea Partiers…are not well read and do not have a grasp on the details as far as exactly how much of their income goes to taxes.”
While that may be your experience Philmon, I have only seen the exact opposite. Maybe Beck’s 9/12 Project tends to draw more educated folks, I dunn’o.
BTW, my 2 cents, what purpose is served to admit such s thing to people who already hold a certain bias towards the Tea Party people anyways? Especially when it was irrelevant in the discussion? (In a more long winded discussion I think this is an example of what we Conservatives do wrong in regards to the Left’s attacks, we give up certain premises/arguments/debate points while they never admit to anything, especially being wrong).
They don’t sound too smart themselves in comparing taxes of Obama and Bush anyways. Do they think their taxes are not going to increase soon enough considering when Obamcare, Cap & Trade take full effect, or the soon to be addressed Illegal…rather Undocumented Americans are given amnesty? Let’s not forget about the deficit, how exactly do these folks think that is to be paid off, a yard sale?
I admit what I believe is the truth. And by a "significant number", I don't mean "most". But too many. I wince when I hear some people interviewed because they're not well enough versed in the facts or they are unable to articulate their core values very well.
That is true on the Left, too - and I suppose I should add that a substantiall larger number on the left suffer from that problem than in the Tea Party Movement. Witness the undercover videos taken at the pro-Communist ... I mean anti-war demonstrations during the Bush years.
No, I really do believe we Tea Partiers need to HELP our fellow Tea Partiers find the words they need to express their thoughts. Granted, I believe the MSM seeks the less articulate out at our demonstrations whereas they avoid that type at leftist demonstrations -- but you have to admit a lot of the people out there with us know something's wrong but they haven't been engaged and they flail for the right words. Maybe it's only 20%or 30% of us, but that "significant". It makes it that much easier for the wrong people to be sought out by the MSM to put on camera and berate.
There's nothing wrong with these people, and I'm glad they're up and out there with us - but we need to help them focus.
If I could get one consistent phrase out there in Tea Party land as to what we're about, it would be the framing.
This is about the role of government in a free society. Everything else builds from there.
Yeah, your point about 9/12'ers is good. Not all Tea Partiers are 9/12'ers. Glenn has done his best to piss off the fringe (on purpose or not) so they probably tend to stay away from him. Anybody who listens to Beck regularly is, in fact (if they are absorbing the facts) pretty well informed on the issues.
Yes, Lefties, that's what I said. I agree with Glenn Beck in general on most of his conclusions, and he is very careful in checking his actual facts, and very straightforward in his understanding with his audience that he expects them to double-check them.
At any rate, the Tea Party movement probably does have a wider fringe than the 9/12ers. Frankly, I generally don't distinguish between the two because the overlap is huge. But there is no list of Principles and Values for Tea Partiers. Any Lyndon Laruche or ... what's his face ... Alex Jones groupie can show up. They'll be overwhelmed in numbers by the regular folks like the 9/12ers, but they'll be there.
"I think this is an example of what we Conservatives do wrong in regards to the Left’s attacks, we give up certain premises/arguments/debate points while they never admit to anything, especially being wrong"
Yup. But I don't think it's something we do wrong. I think in the end (besides the fact that we're right) tactically, it is what separates us from them. We have principles. They have goals.
While that is commendable and probably what most of do most of the time…we all also, for various reasons, tend to not tell the complete truth all of the time.
Be it to save someone form embarrassment, to get the sale at work, to just plain make life easier. Examples being, if your girl/wife asks if she looks fat, when a customer inquires about something insignificant or someone doesn’t need to know something personal about you. Exact instances I’m sure you can think of yourself.
More to the subject at hand, I refuse to give ammunition to the other side, most especially when it is totally irrelevant and more importantly it contradicts their very own argument.
“No, I really do believe we Tea Partiers need to HELP our fellow Tea Partiers find the words they need to express their thoughts.”
I think that’s a HUGE problem in our society as a whole, Philmon. I cringe while listening to the callers on the local AM talk radio programs. Believe me I know I’m not most educated or articulate person but I know I can do better than 80% of the people who call in. Like my father taught me and my siblings when we were young, “think before you speak”.
One thing about the TP people on TV; it’s gott’a be nerve racking to have a microphone thrust into your face, from someone you know is hostile to your position and knowing what you say will be on national TV.
“We have principles. They have goals.”
Yea, that’s a good way to look at it, absolutely. I’m just more than a little tired of us on the Right being lead by our noses to what subject is at hand, to let them determine the argument/subject/debate at hand. Principles indeed, but principles without focus or the ability to make sure those principles are broadcasted clearly, concisely and correctly…we need to do a better job.
I think Glenn Beck is right.
Education and adherence to our basic principles is the answer.
Education does two things. One, it makes us more informed voters. And two, it enables us to win over centrists who THINK they know what's going on because they watched NBC news or CNN last night, and thus they just repeat the latest leftist talking points being pushed.
When we are not educated and have not anchored the facts to our principles to form a consistent worldview -- we don't challenge the leftist mumbo-jumbo and therefore the average unengaged citizen is more likely to be swayed the leftist. We must stop this, and win over family and friends, one at a time if that's what it takes.
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